God outside of Religion

[atonement]

The religions of the world have set structures and some of them say they are the only way to God. What I would like to ask is, if one has an unshakeable belief in God and use prayer, meditation and work with other human beings to try to perfect and enlarge your spiritual life, must you align yourself with a religion?

[alex001]

Interesting question. Here's a quote that gives indications of the Church's view better than I could:
--
"All human beings are called to belong to the Church. Not all are fully incorporated into the Church, but "the Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christ, but who do not however profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter" (Lumen Gentium, 15) and even with "those who have not yet received the Gospel," among whom Jews and Muslims are explicitly mentioned (Lumen Gentium, 16)."
--
Lumen Gentium is a section of Vatican II (a section which - as an aside - caused controversy with some church groups, for reasons discussed in other topics/threads).

A

[nick]

Good answer the catholic church! I think religion (ok we're not going to debate whether religion is the right way to God on this site I think we can take it as read we have sympathies in that direction) offers a certain level of structure, discipline and leadership it would be difficult to find on one's own.

[Bro. Paul]

I think religion (ok we're not going to debate whether religion is the right way to God on this site I think we can take it as read we have sympathies in that direction) offers a certain level of structure, discipline and leadership it would be difficult to find on one's own.

So, where does the above leave someone like General Gordon, who was a very religious man, lived the Gospel life and was held as the ideal Victorian Christian, yet never belonged to a church? (He was also a soldier who detested fighting - Certainly a paradox, then) Perhaps the fact that he was also often known to go off in his own direction may be an arguement for his need to actually belong to a church, but, perhaps, though most of us need such a structure, God also has use of certain individuals for whom such 'membership' would limited His purpose for them...

Just an idea...

Pax

[nick]

I agree entriely with your sentiments Bro.Paul. Maybe we can take this hypothesis further; if one can adequately do Gods will outside of organised religion, are such institutions merely social cohesives?

[alex001]

Now...this could get interesting. Something I began to realise recently (last 3 months) as I was in church is that for many months I had been in church _alone_. Not literally alone, but I had not been there as part of the congregation. I think part of the reason for this was that, looking around the church there are many people there who I would not have much in common with outside of the church. However I was reading somewhere about what St Paul says about the body of the church and also my priest talked about how important it was that we prayer _together_. Then it started to sink in that I had been going to church alone, and I got a glimpse of what it may mean to lower my prideful and self-centred "defences" to be part of a church, and to pray as part of a church. Humans are essentially social, and so perhaps a prayer and meditation as part of a group reaches deeper into what we are.

A

[nick]

I think western society (especially western europe) has turned it's back on the patriarchal, pastoral and spiritually directive nature of the organised church. This I think it due to a continuing growing belief in people's (im my belife mis-directed) belief that their lives should be self-determined and un-fettered by any kind moral or spiritual authority. Conversley (and unlikely) it may be that this moral degeneration will eventually lead to a back-lash of religious zealotry (spelling?).

[alex001]

Yes - I think you're may be right - and I also agree that things often go in cycles. But the Church has been constant for 2000 years! I think most people find it hard to think beyond 5 years...

[mark]

This I think it due to a continuing growing belief in people's (im my belife mis-directed) belief that their lives should be self-determined and un-fettered by any kind moral or spiritual authority.

Authority is one the things I have been trying to meditate about this Lent.

It is difficult in a secular society to accept this but it is key for most Christians (I don't know what God's will for people like Gen. Gordon is) to accept that the church knows better than they about moral and faith issues. I really have to pray - and do penance - to accept this thought as somone who lives in the so called real modern world. Even if my "rational" thoughts don't accept something, a key part of faith is intellectual submission, that I acknowledge that Our Lord committed the power of decision on these things not to me or or to any ordinary guy however bright I may think I am (intellectual pride is a real issue with me) but to the Church.

These two prayers, which are part of my daily morning prayers, are ones I sometimes struggle with:-

"I believe what the Catholic church teaches. I deny what it denies."

"Lord God, I firmly believe that You are one God in three Divine Persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost; I believe that Your divine Son became man, and died for our sins, and that He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches, because You have revealed them, Who can neither deceive nor be deceived. Amen."

[atonement]

I am one of those happy to humble myself before a greater earthly power. I do not think I am naive, I do not believe without doubt that the church is correct on all matters, but my loyalty and deference is to that institution and this does me unarguable spiritual good. My opinion is it is a rather global form of ministerial responsibility (a UK analogy). Within the church, we may argue, disagree, and sometimes lose our cool, but to the world I tend to present a largely united front and I stand firm in support of the church.

If I were to practice my beliefs outside of such an institution, I would find such subjugation more difficult. I believe in nailing my colours to the mast, although that does not mean I lose my brain. If the church became ill-informed and dangerous during some unimagined chain of events, I would, in consultation with my fellows, choose what path should be taken.