Sensible suggestions

[Bro. Paul]

A full size wooden cross, strong enough to hold a man, hands and feet bound to it by a responsible, closed mouth partner, preferably a spiritual director. I do not how long such a penance would be tolerable and I have never considered such a thing until now. Now I have considered it, I would imagine someone has probably already experienced it.

I recall watching a programme a few years ago, about the Passion of the Christ, where they showed natives of some Far East island actually being secured with nails and ropes to crosses as part of their Good Friday devotions... This practice was limited to young men of the islands...

Picking up on what you say about using a 'closed mouth partner' for your suggestion, I also remeber someone I met during a retreat who told me that he and a friend 'helped' each other when it came to using the discipline. Basically, they would meet once a week to take it in turns to use it on each other, the idea being then that neither could then get too carried away with using it on themselves, nor merely 'play' at it... Needless to say, though I can see the sense of this, I can also see the 'danger' of being labelled as a 'nutter', at the least, again by the world...

[nick]

Bro.Paul, is this the video you were referring to? I found it on National Geographic about people being voluntarily crucified:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... source=rss

An excellent thread, thank you to all who have contributed so far, although I think we may have 'peaked' already, with trenchtown's and Bro.Pauls posts

[Bro. Paul]

With regards to other forms of penance, I recall reading about the Celtic saints who would stand all night in pools of water or the sea reciting the Psalms... Of course, if you tried that nowadays, you would probably have the RNLI called out to rescue you!

However, I know that they would also would remain awake all night in chapel reciting the Psalms there too, sometimes remaining standing all night, or lain in the shape of the Cross. I must admit that I really admire these early saints who committed to memory the entire Psalter and Gospels. Perhaps this is a 'talent' that has been lost to the modern world...

[alex001]

Does anybody know what the churches theological view is on the extremity of suffering used in penance? Are there recommended limits?

[mark]

Does anybody know what the churches theological view is on the extremity of suffering used in penance? Are there recommended limits?

I am pretty sure (also from talking to some very sound priests) that it doesn't have one although some rather modernist priests might discourage it from a pastoral not a theological viewpoint. There is a huge list of saints who practised heroic mortification. I have a list in the form of a litany which it may be worth praying/meditating on before penance.

Mark

[mark]

And I have just found this from Pope John XXIII:-

"But the faithful must also be encouraged to do outward acts of penance, both to keep their bodies under the strict control of
reason and faith, and to make amends for their own and other people's sins... St. Augustine issued the same insistent warning:
"It is not enough for a man to change his ways for the better and to give up the practice of evil, unless by painful penance,
sorrowing humility, the sacrifice of a contrite heart and the giving of alms he makes amends to God for all that he has done
wrong." ...But besides bearing in a Christian spirit the inescapable annoyances and sufferings of this life, the faithful ought also take the initiative in doing voluntary acts of penance and offering them to God.... Since, therefore, Christ has suffered in the flesh," it is only fitting that we be "armed with the same intent." It is right, too, to seek example and inspiration from the great saints of the Church. Pure as they were, they inflicted such mortifications upon themselves as to leave us almost aghast with admiration. And as we contemplate their saintly heroism, shall not we be moved by God's grace to impose on ourselves voluntary sufferings and deprivations, we whose consciences are perhaps weighed down by so heavy a burden of guilt?"

That's pretty conclusive to me

[nick]

This is one of those topics where I really feel I am on solid spiritual ground. There is SUCH a large combined weight of theological opinion and scripture/literature in support of corporal mortifiaction that it appears to be, in my opinion, a 'no brainer.'

...But just try and get them to see it!!

[annenquirer]

This is one of those topics where I really feel I am on solid spiritual ground. There is SUCH a large combined weight of theological opinion and scripture/literature in support of corporal mortifiaction that it appears to be, in my opinion, a 'no brainer.'

...But just try and get them to see it!!

Umm, perhaps not so easy to find scriptural support?

[alex001]

I'm not a big one for looking for scriptural justification for everything - basically because I believe that God gave us minds, enquiry and the desire to analyse for a reason: the body of the Church has a _brain_, and I think God expected us to do some thinking over the last 2000 years. New acts and Traditions have emerged for sacred reasons IMHO. Also, blind quoting can be used in almost any context to prove contradictory points. However there are some useful quotes in scripture as well:

Behold, we account them blessed who have endured.
James 5

--
In my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, that is the Church.
Col 1

--
For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.
1 Peter 2

--
And they that are Christ's, have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences.
Galatians 5

--
I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway
1 Cor 9


A

[annenquirer]

As you say, it is better to quote in context, and I think the context of many of those quotes is related to how to bear suffering or punishment inflicted on you by others, not self-inflicted punishment. For example, the quote from 1 Peter:

Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.

For whenever anyone bears the pain of unjust suffering because of consciousness of God, that is a grace.

But what credit is there if you are patient when beaten for doing wrong? But if you are patient when you suffer for doing what is good, this is a grace before God.

For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.

"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

When he was insulted, he returned no insult; when he suffered, he did not threaten; instead, he handed himself over to the one who judges justly.